우연히 북미 포럼 돌아다니다가 발견한 글인데 심상찮네요
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144149
ZvT 에서 저그가 불리한 이유를 브루드워와 비교하여 조목조목들고있는데..
북미에서 꽤나 뜨거운 감자인거 같아 인벤에도 옮겨옵니다 =)
크게 9가지 문제점을 자세히 설명하고 있고,
마지막에 자신의 심정도 적어놨군요
Z v T: Current situation and comparison to BW
Hey there.
I know this thread may look similar to many of the
others. But I did not see a ZvT comparison of SC2 and BW. I did not want
to conclude that Z v T is totally worse than it was in BW, but I think
this comparison will at least show why Z v T is so hard now in SC2. Sure
of course I admit Zerg has some advantage from BW to SC2, so it is not
totally worse.
The most serious problem is I have very little fun playing Z v T.
----
I
just checked the sc2ranks and I am now no.5 Zerg in the US server. The
first 4 Zergs are SLush, ostojiy, IdrA and Sheth (who plays Terran now).
They are totally beasts,
definitely a lot better than me. BTW they
are the only Zergs in top 40. Here I just want to present what I
observed and thought of. Sorry for my poor English writing.
----
First I want to state my opinion of the current situation of Z v T. It is totaly broken.
Some may argue two facts:
(1) Idra has a very decent win ratio;
(2) Koreans are doing fine with zerg.
Those two facts lead to total misunderstandings.
I
have two points to mention. One, Idra is definitely playing in a pro
scene, while the terran players around his points are all ameteurs.
Two,
Idra got those win-ratio very early in the release, when Terrans are
not so imba. Terrans are improving very fast, while Zergs improvement is
very slow.
During the first week of release, I have no problem
playing with the Terrans who now rank at top 50 US and won a decent
amount of games. During the second week, my win ratio against Terran
drops, still not so bad. Now in the third week, it becomes a nightmare
to play against Terran (I don't even want to mention that 70% of my
opponents are Terrans since I got my position in ladder now). They are
almost the same players, but now they are definitely more aware of how
to abuse the Terran advantages.
I did not say the race Terran has
changed since the release. I just say when it was first released,
Terran players were not so abusive. They were not so aware of what they
can do.For the Korean scene, I noticed that the number of top Zergs
rapidly droped as well, which confirms my statement about Terrans
getting better.
------
To sum up the reasons why Terran has this huge advantage. I would compare it to BW, in 6 different aspects.
1, As Sheth mentioned, Zerg has no ability to defend against sieging or to siege.http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140800Thanks to Sheth, quite well stated post.
2, The Terran is very flexible with strategies, but Zerg is not. In Z v T, Terran has at least 10 openning strategies that are considered effective against good Zergs. I just list some here:
reapers,
hellions,
banshees,
fast expand,
mass bio/marines,
ghosts/nukes,
tank rush,
pure mech,
dropships,
vikings...
What
do Zergs have? They have speedlings or roaches. Basically we have to
choose one of this. (don't mention baneling bust please. It is not
effective against good Terrans) Neither of those two method is a threat
to Terran. They are only defensive (that means the Terran can open as
whatever he likes). And roaches are badly countered by nearly every
strategy of Terran even when those strategies are not designed to
counter roaches. So speedlings becomes nearly the only solution. Too few
choices of Zerg, versus too many choices of Terran. We only have 1 base
or 2 base openings, usually as a reaction to the Terran strategy rather
than a choice by ourselves.
While in BW, things are different.
Lurker is possible, muta is possible, speedling is possible, hydra is
possible as well. Also 1 hatch is possible, 2 hatch is possible, 3 hatch
is possible, fast upgrade is possible... Those are nearlly all possible
against most of the Terran strategies, and they all lead to different
mid-games.
3, The Terran mobility is too good comparing to the Zerg ground army.I
did not say Terran has a better mobility, which is obviously false. But
Zerg needs a much better mobility in SC2. In BW, the slowest unit of
zerg army is the upgraded hydralisk, which can outrun any terran army
very easily. That means, if you are in bad position, you can choose to
retreat and hold a better position. In SC2, the hydras and roaches are
relatively slow off creep, and you can not have creep everywhere to
attack at your desired directions. That makes Zerg extremely difficult
to surround the Terran army and attack from several directions (which is
common in BW). This point is very critical. Now terran has reapers and
helions as very fast units, and they counter the fast units of Zerg
(Zerglings and Banelings), so the Terran army is usually guarrenteed a
moderate position when the fight begins. It is very different from that
in BW, where T is always surrounded by Zerg units.
edit: I think he made it more clear than what I said
On August 15 2010 12:36 Neverhood wrote:
Finally,
the other noticeable thing I feel like zerg is missing from BW is the
mobility. OP makes an excellent point in that zerg players can no longer
be as selective about where to engage the terran army. A decent terran
will be very diligent at clearing out creep once it reaches the center
of the map and the only zerg ground unit thats actually good off creep
are lings....which got significantly worse since BW.
4, Zerg army is hard-countered, and Terran army is slightly-countered. For
each unit or unit combination of Zerg, Terran can find a very effective
unit or unit combo to counter it hard. Ex. Muta - Thors/Ghosts,
Broodlords - Vikings, Roaches - Marauders/Tanks, Hydra -
Bio/Tanks/Thors, lings - Helions... unit combo: Muta&lings -
bio/Thors&Helions, Roaches&Hydras - Marader&Tanks/Mech, Zerg
everything together - Mech...
The only unit that is not
hard-countered is the ultralisks, but it comes too late, and you can't
use it along. Ultra&lings is slightly countered by mech.
On
the other side, if you see terran goes hard marauders/mech, you don't
have anything really counter them. Zerglings might be good against
Marauders, Banelings good against marine, but the combo is only slightly
good (or even) against Marau & Marines with good control due to the
fact that Marauders consume all the damage and marines are really good
DPS.
That raises the problem, that even if the Zerg knows exactly
what the terran is going to do, it can not find a good counter to the
Terran army. Recall in BW, the mech consists of two major units:
Goliaths and tanks. If the T goes heavy on Goliath, the zerg will make
more hydras. If the T goes heavy tanks, the zerg can make all mutas.
Switch between those two units is very effective in Z v mech games. The
reason is Hydras totally own goliaths and Mutalisks kill tanks free. But
in SC2, I can't see any switch that is so effective. Changing from Muta
to Roaches or Hydras does not help so much with killing Thors...
5, Zerg units are too weak compared to BW when they are in small number.In
BW, zerg is the race that uses the smallest food and fewest resource to
generate a single effective unit. 2 hydras kill 1 dragoon or 1 tank, 4
zerglings kill 2marines or 1 zealot, 4 hydras kill 1 battlecruiser,
etc... The zerg units only get beaten when the number of army is large.
That is a perfect balance: when army is small, zerg is more resources
effective, but it will sacrafice the economy to make army early game for
zerg (not that bad for T and P!). When army is large, P/T is more
resources effective, but Z has a better economy then.
edit: a good point
On August 15 2010 12:36 Elite00fm wrote:
OP
your point 5 needs revision, zerg is stronger at low unit counts
because of how T armies become exponentially stronger as they get
larger, and since the majority of z units are melee/close range, T units
standing in a ball protect each other from being attacked individually
by z units, greatly diminishing the dps of a zerg army.
Now
in SC2, Zerg units are really weak. 5 Hydras < 1 battlecruiser or 1
thor, 5 roaches < 1 thor. That means hydras and roaches are really
resource ineffective against big things (In BW, those big things are
ineffective because they have the ultimate power when you get more of
them). Even facing small things their behavior is not as good as in BW.
Zerglings are much weaker as well. This will make the zerg very
difficult to survive after a big battle. In BW, if after a big battle,
there are 5 marines left on the battle field, the newly-made zerg units
will crash them + the newly-made terran units because in small number
zerg dominates (also tanks are not in good position, medics and marines
are not perfectly matched, etc). Now in SC2, if after a big battle,
there are 5 marines left, with both side has the similar volume of
reinforcement coming, Zerg dies.
6, The new AI helps Terran too much.(1)
In SC2 unit turn to get into a ball - good for tanks, ravens to kill
zerg, also good for marauders to consume damage for marines, good for
thors to block the tanks, etc.. Also good for Terran to reposition their
reinforcement very quickly. It used to be a pain to let the newly-made
Terran units to cooperate perfectly with the attacking army in BW.
(2)
The auto-repair thing is terrible. Zerglings do not attack the
repairing scv, so if a thor is being surrounded and auto-repaired, no
zergling will do any damage to it unless you force them to attack scvs
one by one. Not to mention that the scvs around a thor is very difficult
to catch.
(3) Tanks do not waste DPS.. They are too smart to
avoid self-damage now. If you spawn infested terran in the middle of a
ball of Terran tanks, only one tank will fire, and it is not a big deal.
In BW the tanks around the infested terran will all die instantly.
17th Augest, added three more observations that I think is important.7, The Terran scout is insanely easy.Just
an example. Many zergs may think that if T opens with reapers then it
is a success to just prevent them from killing your drones. However I
found it wrong. The reaper only cost 50/50 even plus their upgrade its
just 100/100. But it stays at your base forever until you have mutas.
You have to either make speedlings or roaches in respond to 1 or 2
reapers, and you don't even dare to send them out. The reapers serve two
purpose: continuously scout & keep your units at home.
So
basically the reapers will give the Terran all the information he needs
at a very low cost plus a good threat to the Zerg. Back in BW the only
method to scout early zerg is the scan which increases the danger of
being hit or contained by lurkers in early game if it is used for
scouting purpose..
The zerg scout is a pain. If the Terran is
doing something early harass or attack, sacraficing an overlord or an
overseer would simply just make the defending more difficult even if you
get what he is doing. Most of the time you only got to see 1/1/1 build
and have no idea what is going on in Terran.
8, The Terran map control / macro is insanely effective.Some
may say "just outmarco them" to zerg players. Yes it is true in BW.
Zerg outmacros Terran. But in SC2 I found it really difficult to
outmacro Terran. I have been outmacroed by Terran multiple times.
Let
us recall why Zerg can outmacro Terran in BW. That is because Zerg has
the map control for most of the game when Terran turtled at his own
base. This is the only reason that Zerg can expand without endangering
himself. (Same arguement holds for PvT and ZvP.)
Why Zerg has the
map control then? Two main reasons. One, the Zerg units are more
effective when the number is small (point 5 above). Hence sending army
in the wrong time-spot is stupid for Terran. (Consider sending 6 marines
and 1 Tank out each time for a Terran!) Two, most importantly, the
mobility (point 3 above). Terran never gets his army back if he is not
dominating the battle field. The army will be surrouded and ambushed.
Due to its slow movement speed it never comes back, if it can not win
the battle against the Zerg army.
In SC2 things are different. If
the Zerg does not go mutalings, then Bio mobility is much better than
the Zerg ground army. That means most of the time terran can send his
army out their control the map safely and when he thinks its no longer
safe just retreat to his home. Sentry towers will greatly help this as
well. And even the Mech, which is considered the most immobile army in
the world, can safely run back from Z's base to his own base when
chasing by hydras. On their way home zerglings are taken down by
hellions and roaches are taken care of if they dare to move away from
hydras. Yes, infestor helps with this, maybe a few units each time.
Don't even need to mention that Hellions always controls the Xel'Naga towers and they just mess all around...
When
Terran has the first hellion or reaper, he gets the map control (also
perfect scout for reapers). He can expand at that time very safely,
because he knows you wont send anything out untill very late. If you
send roaches, then reapers and hellions will run into your poor home and
slain everything that comes to their sight. After that they run back to
T's base ahead of your attacking roaches - WTF? Yes I am a little bit
exaggerate...
Also the static defence of Terran is insane. In BW
Terran always has to put an army to defend a expansion. But in SC2 you
simply just leave it there and everything will be fine. Free banker,
invincible PF, increadible turrets,...
All those will lead to the
fact Terran very easy to expand. Just stand 1 minute (well, hydras are
on the way! ETA, 2 minutes.) on a expansion, waiting for the PF to
complete and this expansion belongs to Terran forever. I think in
high-level plays, Terran will have more and more expansions compared to
the Zerg. (I remember a replay where CheckPrime is outmacroed by a
Terran lol.)
I believe this is the reason why Zerg is heavy on
mutalings now. At least mutalings are mobile and you will not be
outmacroed by Terran so easily.
9, The Terran is so easy to play.I
just saw DIMAGA won the tournament AS TERRAN. According to my
experience and words from DIMAGA and Sheth, I think Terran is too easy
to play.
I was A- Zerg on iccup and I play TvZ a lot. But I can
hardly take down any Zerg who is B- or better. It is a huge difficulty
when playing as a Terran. You have to worry about everything. Early
harass, early push, a black map, lurker threat, the dark swarm, the
plague, the counter attack at any time, the defending of any base... You
have a lot to do to become a good Terran. For example, you have to
overreact if you saw just 2 speedlings when you FE. A miscontrol will
lose almost your entire army. Everytime I felt ZvT is hard, I turned to
play TvZ and realized how difficult it is.
In SC2, at first I
thought it should work the same way. Terran is powerful and difficult to
play. On the first day of my terran playing (I absolutely never played
it except for the campaign and a few random 2v2s), I was shocked by the
ease of playing as Terran. My first 4 games were against an 800+ diamond
zerg and I killed him 4-0 without letting him sending anything across
the middle of the map. I fully understand why DIMAGA can win the
tournament as Terran. It is way too easy to play. Compared to BW, too
few things to worry about. T is almost always in an aggressive position,
even in the very early game.
----
I do not enjoy
playing Z v T now. Too few strategies, too long time of defending and
reacting, getting destroyed so easily. It seems like I am a machine just
sitting there defending all those reapers hellions banshees vikings
dropships thors .... finally I have the freedom to choose to do
something, then 2 minutes later I get owned. ............ It is not fun.
Really not fun.
I will not switch race to terran like someone
said, but I will keep complainting. We Zerg users choose Zerg for a
reason, and all of us want Zerg to be playable again.
마지막 부분만 조금 의역하면,
전
이제 ZvT 를 즐길 수 없습니다. 너무 적은 전략과, 기나긴 시간동안 상대에 반응해 막기만 하고, 그리해도 쉽게 집니다.
앉아서 저 모든 사신 화염차 밴시 바이킹 드랍십 토르 이런걸 막아내는 기계나 된듯하고... 마지막에 가서야 내가 뭔가를 할
자유가 주어지고, 2분 뒤 집니다...... 이건 아니에요. 정말 아닙니다.
누군가 말한거처럼 테란으로 바꾸진 않을겁니다. 계속 건의할 겁니다. 우리 저그 유저들은 자신의 선택으로 저그를 골랐고, 우리 모두는 저그가 다시 할만해지길 바랍니다.
회멸
회멸
